Who are the ahbash and what are they doing in Nottingham?

18Oct11

Well we have no idea why they are in Nottingham, however one thing is for sure and that is they are an astray sect.

Habashis (or ahbash for plural) are a deviant cult that was first initiated by their prophet Abdullaah ibn Muhammad al harairee al habashi. He was originally from Ethiopia (habasha), however travelled to many countries including Syria and finally ended up in Lebanon.

This evil man was the main influence behind the closing of Islamic associations (including hifdh schools) in Ethiopia, siding with governmental bodies including the taghut of the Rastafarians Haile Selassie. When he arrived in Lebanon, he brought his fitnah there where he started to call people to his way. His number of followers increased and his ideas – which are a mixture of the ideas of the Jahmiyyah [a group which misinterpreted the attributes of Allaah], the Mu’tazilah [a philosophical group many of whose ideas differ from those of Ahlus-Sunnah], grave-worshippers and Sufis – began to spread.

Alhamdullillaah, Allaah rid the ummah of his presence in 2008 which was the year of his death. However unfortunately, his fitnah is still present due to followers of his.

The followers claim to follow Imaam Ash-Shaafi’ee , however the reality of that is they couldn’t be further from the beliefs and practices from Imaam ash-Shaafi’ee (rh).

Amongst the beliefs and practices they have taken from their prophet are;

1) They deny Allaah being above His Arsh and instead claim that Allaah exists without a place (i.e. Allaah is nowhere).[1] Even though there are countless ayaat of the Quran where Allaah confirms His ‘Uluww
2) They have different fractions however some of them believe the Qur’an is not the speech of Allaah rather the speech of Jibreel (as)
3) They encourage people to go to the graves and appeal for aid from dead. Also they say it’s permissible to seek the protection from other than Allaah just like their prophet Abdullah al habashi did. [2]
4) Also, he said Awliya come from their graves to tend to people’s needs, then they go back to their graves! [3]
5) They also side with the rawaafid on insulting mother of the believers A’isha (ra) and say Mu’aawiyah (ra) is a person of the fire. [4]
6) They inherit their nifaaq from their prophet Abdullah al habashi by aiding the kuffaar against muslims, which even caused zionist scum Daniel pipes praising them. (Riad Nachef to be precise) [5]
7) They have double standards all the time. They like to accuse “Wahabis” of tajseem and tashbeeh, however were allied to the real mujassimah, the Nusayris (extreme offshoot of the shi’a). Nizar al-Halabi (one of the major Habashi shuyookh) glorifies the criminal Hafez al-Assad. So according them, Ibn Taymiyyah is a kaafir, but the Nusayri war criminal, Hafez al-Assad is a great man.
8 )They believe the apparent meaning of the Qur’an is kufr as it implies anthropomorphism. This is why they feel the need to interpret all the ayaat concerning Allaah’s attributes. We as Ahlus sunnah seek refuge in Allaah from such evil beliefs! We know Allaah is the most eloquent at explaining about himself and whatever is conveyed in meaning (appareant or unclear) is free from kufr.

They have a patchy following in Lebanon, United States and in the United Kingdom (their main base being in Halifax). However they have tried to branch out to Nottingham to call people to their deviant ways.

What is strange is the masjid they started their halaqaat in, have differences with one another! However alas, their study circles were soon stopped and have moved elsewhere in Nottingham to preach there kufr.
Over the past months these people have tried to gain recruits in Nottingham in many methods including social media sites such as facebook.

They have been confusing a lot of the youth and have made takfeer of a lot of individuals numerous of times. According to them, anyone is not one of them is a kaafir. They are the Jehovah’s Witnesses of this Ummah.

The Fakehead Report have repeatedly challenged AICP UK for a debate however have only had hot air responses. Again we are challenging this jahmi group to come forward to a recorded open debate so at least the confusion amongst the youth stops Insha’Allaah

Will we get a positive response this time? Let’s find out.

Allaah is the best disposer of affairs and may Peace and Blessings be upon our master Muhammad (SallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam)

———————————————————————-

References

[1] Shaykhabdullah.com
[2] Al-Daleel Al-Qaweem P.173, Bughyat al-ṭālib li-ma‘rifat al-‘ilm al-dīnī al-wājib P.8, Sareeh Al-Bayan P.57-62
[3] Sareh Al-Byan P. 58, Ithhar Al-Aqedah Al-Sunnyah P.244
[4] Ethhar Al-Aqeedah AlSunnyah P. 182
[5] http://www.danielpipes.org/312/needed-muslims-against-terror-and-not-salam-al-marayati

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25 Responses to “Who are the ahbash and what are they doing in Nottingham?”

  1. Wow lies…

    My mother and grandmother/grandfather were born and raised where he was born. He is known as an `Alim (Scholar) there and known to have memorized the Qur’aan at the age of seven, and the six books of Hadith by 18. He was the main influence of the OPENING of Islamic associations, these are such pathetic lies and the OVERTHROWING of Salasee.

    The Creed of the Ahbash is the creed of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-jama’ah. What braindead Wahhabis don’t get is that Muslims don’t pray to a man somewhere high up, as the mental-idol worshiping Wahhabis do.

    Ahlus-Sunnah doesn’t interpret all the verses literally. The Wahhabis are among those mentioned in Surah Aal-`Imraan ayah 7

    Allah describes His Prophet in the Qur’aan as

    (Surah Al-Ahzab, ayah 46).

    If there is no figurative speech in the Qur’aan, then the Prophet, according to Wahhabis/pseudo Salafis, must be a literal lamp, which is not true because he is a human being. The actual meaning is that the Prophet eradicates the darkness of blasphemy and is a reason for misguided people to become guided.

    Also, Allah informed us in the Qur’aan

    (Surah Al-Baqarah, ayah 223).

    Therefore, according to those who deny figurative speech (such as WAHAHABIES) in the Book of Allah or the sayings of His Prophet, the women are actual plots of land, and not humans made of flesh and blood.

    The Scholar Abu Ubaydah Ma`mar Ibn Al-Muthanna (110-207 AH) has a famous book entitled “MAJAAZ Al-Qur’aan” (The FIGURATIVE speech within the Qur’aan).

    Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalaniyy said: “The fact that the two directions above and below are impossible to be attributes of Allah, does not necessitate that Allah would not be attributed with aboveness, because attributing aboveness to Allah is a matter of status and the impossibility lies in it being physical”.

    The Scholars of Islam would interpret the MUTASHABIHAT verses according to the MUHKAM ayahs. To claim that Allah is in a direction would be in clear contradiction with 42:11.

    42:11 means . This is a muhkam verse, and again, a muhkam verse is a verse that can only have one interpretation according to the Arabic language. It is important to know the merit Allah gave to the Muhkam verses. Allah told us

    (Surah Aal-`Imraan ayah 7).

    The Mutashabih verses are not the base of the book, but you stupid Wahhabis act as if they are, which shows that you do not understand the true meaning of this verse, or the true meaning of 42:11. The true Sunni Muslims follow the rule of Allah that proves that the Muhkam verses are the base of the book. They base their belief on 42:11 because it is a muhkam verse. Then, when one encounters attributes of Allah like “Al-Yad”, “Al-Wajh”, “Al-Ayn”, “Al-Istiwaa”, etc, whose literal meaning would liken Allah to the creations, they interpret them in a way that does not give Allah a body or an attribute of a body, because these words can have more than one meaning.

    Everyone who isn’t Ahbash is not a kafir. And this is a blatant lie. The belief of the Ahbash is the belief of Ahlus-Sunnah Wal-Jamaa`ah.

    • Wow lies…

      My mother and grandmother/grandfather were born and raised where he was born. He is known as an `Alim (Scholar) there and known to have memorized the Qur’aan at the age of seven, and the six books of Hadith by 18. He was the main influence of the OPENING of Islamic associations, these are such pathetic lies and the OVERTHROWING of Salasee.

      Thank you for your input. However just to inform you, you’re highly mistaken regarding your cult leader. He stopped hifdh schools on the account of them being ‘wahhabi’. Know the history before you comment. Plus If his aqeedah and manhaj is against the salaf then it doesn’t make a difference what he is known as in Ethiopia. He’s still a deviant.

      The Creed of the Ahbash is the creed of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-jama’ah. What braindead Wahhabis don’t get is that Muslims don’t pray to a man somewhere high up, as the mental-idol worshiping Wahhabis do.

      Ahlus-Sunnah doesn’t interpret all the verses literally. The Wahhabis are among those mentioned in Surah Aal-`Imraan ayah 7

      Allah describes His Prophet in the Qur’aan as

      (Surah Al-Ahzab, ayah 46).

      If there is no figurative speech in the Qur’aan, then the Prophet, according to Wahhabis/pseudo Salafis, must be a literal lamp, which is not true because he is a human being. The actual meaning is that the Prophet eradicates the darkness of blasphemy and is a reason for misguided people to become guided.

      Also, Allah informed us in the Qur’aan

      (Surah Al-Baqarah, ayah 223).

      Therefore, according to those who deny figurative speech (such as WAHAHABIES) in the Book of Allah or the sayings of His Prophet, the women are actual plots of land, and not humans made of flesh and blood.

      Same typical rhetoric all you jahmis come with. You quote ayaat yet none of the support your beliefs. It just used out of context to support your false views.

      The Murjia also have this evidence from the hadeeth about the man who did no good

      The Jabariyya also have evidence – wa ma tasha’un illa an yasha Allahu Rabbul’Aalamin

      The Jahmiyya (your ancestors) also have a reference for denying names and attributes – laysa kamithlihi shay’.

      Conclusion – None of you heretics are lacking in textual proof for your heresies.

      But here comes the difference between heretics like you and Ahlus-Sunnah.

      Ahlus-Sunnah draw their conclusions in light of all the texts concerning a topic.

      Heretics like you take one textual proof to back their heresy and make ta’weel of the rest, as is the case above with the Jahmiyya, the Jabariyya, and now with you – the ahbash.

      Additionally, what gets your greek kalam brain all fizzled is that you do not know the difference between Literal and Apparent. They are two different things.

      e.g.

      If I were to say “There was a lion on the battlefield” How would you understand that?

      Would you take the LITERAL meaning that there was an actual animal known as a lion on the battlefield or would you take the APPARENT meaning that there was a brave man on the battlefield?

      Obviously the latter.

      THAT is how the Qur’an and sunnah is ALWAYS understood unless there textual proof to indicate otherwise. Anyone who claims otherwise is indicating that Allaah cannot convey his message in a clear tone which warrants deficiency in the Quran and The Quran is free from ANY deficiencies. (We seek refuge in Allaah from such an evil belief).

      The Scholar Abu Ubaydah Ma`mar Ibn Al-Muthanna (110-207 AH) has a famous book entitled “MAJAAZ Al-Qur’aan” (The FIGURATIVE speech within the Qur’aan).

      Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalaniyy said: “The fact that the two directions above and below are impossible to be attributes of Allah, does not necessitate that Allah would not be attributed with aboveness, because attributing aboveness to Allah is a matter of status and the impossibility lies in it being physical”.

      The Scholars of Islam would interpret the MUTASHABIHAT verses according to the MUHKAM ayahs. To claim that Allah is in a direction would be in clear contradiction with 42:11.

      42:11 means . This is a muhkam verse, and again, a muhkam verse is a verse that can only have one interpretation according to the Arabic language. It is important to know the merit Allah gave to the Muhkam verses. Allah told us

      (Surah Aal-`Imraan ayah 7).

      The Mutashabih verses are not the base of the book, but you stupid Wahhabis act as if they are, which shows that you do not understand the true meaning of this verse, or the true meaning of 42:11. The true Sunni Muslims follow the rule of Allah that proves that the Muhkam verses are the base of the book. They base their belief on 42:11 because it is a muhkam verse. Then, when one encounters attributes of Allah like “Al-Yad”, “Al-Wajh”, “Al-Ayn”, “Al-Istiwaa”, etc, whose literal meaning would liken Allah to the creations, they interpret them in a way that does not give Allah a body or an attribute of a body, because these words can have more than one meaning.

      Typical. You refer to a famous laghawi scholar for your creed, yet ignore the likes of

      Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d.241H): “The hadeeth, in our estimation, is to be taken by its apparent (dhaahir) meaning, as it has come from the Prophet sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam…” (Usool as Sunnah no.27 of Imaam Ahmad)

      Al-Khattaabee (d.388H) said: “The madhab of the Salaf with regard to the Attributes of Allaah is to affirm them as they are with their apparent (dhaahir) meaning, negating any resemblance to the creation and without asking how they are.”
      (Al-Ghuniyah ‘an Kalaam wa Ahlihi, as quoted in Mukhtasar al-‘Uluww (p.257/no.311)

      Anyway it was known Ibn Hajar fell into some of the views of Asharism, so it wouldn’t be surprising if he said that. That’s all you have. Ibn Hajar, Bahaqyi, al Juwaynee, and some fabricated statements from Abu Hanifah and Ali (ra).

      Why not ponder on these…

      ‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Abbaas said, “Verily Allaah was above His Throne before He created anything, then He created the creation and decreed what was to exist until the Day of Judgement. “ [Sharh Usool-I’tiqaad of al-Laalikaa’ee, no. 66.]

      ‘Abdullaah ibn Mas’ood said about Allaah’s saying, “Then he rose over the Throne”, “The Throne is over water, and Allaah is above (fawqa) the Throne, and He knows what you are upon.(i.e. what you are doing)” [Khalq Af’aalul-‘Ibaad of Imaam al-Bukhari, no. 103.]

      ‘Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak (d.108H) Rahimahullah said, “We do not say as the Jahmiyyah say, Allaah is on the earth, rather He has risen over His Throne.” And it was said to him, “How should we know our Lord?” He said, “Above the Heavens, over (‘alaa) His Throne.” [Khalq Af’aalul-‘Ibaad of Imaam al-Bukhari, no. 13.]

      Muhammad ibn Yusuf (one of the teachers of Imaam Bukhari) said, “The one who says Allaah is not over (‘alaa) His Throne is a kaafir. And the one who thinks that Allaah did not speak to Moses is a kaafir.” [Khalq Af’aalul-‘Ibaad of Imaam al-Bukhari, no. 66.]

      Actually thorough read of ALL of Khalq Af’aalul-‘Ibaad of Imaam al-Bukhari will do you some good Insha’Allaah

      • I am from the same town where Shakih Abdullah, the founder of Ahbash, was born.The sheikh had bad image in our country.Our people used to call him ‘shaikul fitnah’ and now they call the Ahbash missionaries in harar ‘shaikh kafartu'( meaning a Shaikh who calls people kaffir ) becasue of their swift takfir on any one who speaks against them.Only few people indoctrinated by ‘Ahbash’ ideology speak otherwise yet their voice is loud.

        @Harari Rajul Which institutions are you referring to when you said “He was the main influence of the OPENING of Islamic associations”; In Harar, I don’t know of any INSTITUTIONS attributed to Shaikh Abdullah other than your new Merkez where they teach ‘Hate’ and ‘khilaf’

    • 4 HARAR is not for ahbash

      Wow to you …me and my parents, grand parents or all my ancestors were born there trust me brother he was SHAYKH OF FITNAH may ALLAH rescue my people from his evil deeds and followers
      good person doesn’t close madrasa’s, or won’t sell cemetry…the place called AQAQI in the capital addis just for money may allah punish his followers who did that by support from meles zenawis force whom they are surrounding the area with heavy military force remember what they did to people who protested it,
      still terrorizing our country let me tell u we are awake you they won’t succed with help of allah their philosophy will vanish

  2. 5 Abu Muhammad Ibraheem al-Hanbali

    Tell you what Hamza. I pondered upon the following

    ‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Abbaas said, “Verily Allaah was above His Throne before He created anything, then He created the creation and decreed what was to exist until the Day of Judgement. “ [Sharh Usool-I’tiqaad of al-Laalikaa’ee, no. 66.]

    and you can only come to two conclusions about this.

    1. You affirm that Allah is above His throne in transcendence [al Uluw] not one of physical direction, but as above as we would say He is above being imagined. If you take this position then it would be irrelevant when the Throne was created as you would be saying that Allah is above His creation in tanzeeh, free from it, above being like His creation in anyway. Above description.

    or.

    2. You take the position of the anthropomorphists and even go on to imply that the Throne is uncreated, and Allah has always been directly above it in physical direction.

    Maybe you should take some time out to ponder this, and stop going on like you can refute everything.

    Maybe you should even start of with reading the very first chapter from Mukhtasar Minhaaj ul-Qaasideen to help you see the error in your ways.

    I will be watching, not always responding

    and before you change my post or delete it I have printed screen and facebooked it and have posted it http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150499698412388&set=a.10150499698287388.463463.641587387&type=3&theater so you can think twice about editing and making me look foul, and if it goes unpublished, then people know you accept what you think you can refute and dismiss any valid point

    • Tell you what Hamza. I pondered upon the following

      ‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Abbaas said, “Verily Allaah was above His Throne before He created anything, then He created the creation and decreed what was to exist until the Day of Judgement. “ [Sharh Usool-I’tiqaad of al-Laalikaa’ee, no. 66.]

      and you can only come to two conclusions about this.

      1. You affirm that Allah is above His throne in transcendence [al Uluw] not one of physical direction, but as above as we would say He is above being imagined. If you take this position then it would be irrelevant when the Throne was created as you would be saying that Allah is above His creation in tanzeeh, free from it, above being like His creation in anyway. Above description.

      or.

      2. You take the position of the anthropomorphists and even go on to imply that the Throne is uncreated, and Allah has always been directly above it in physical direction.

      Thank you Andrew for your contribution to this thread (albeit it being a pointless post). I have no idea what point you was trying to make.

      Yes, Allaah is above His Throne as in Majesty and It is established that Allaah is actually above His Throne from the athar of the salaf. Look closer to the screen and read the statements of the salaf I have quoted, as they affirm this (including Imaam al Bukahri’s teacher).

      You need more statements?

      Ibn Abbaas (d. 68H) to A’isha: You were the most beloved of the women of the Messenger of Allah and he would not love except that which was tayyib (good) and Allah sent down the declaration of your innocence from above the seven heavens. [“ar-Radd ‘alaa Bishr bin Ghiyyaath al-Mareesee” p. 105]

      Sulaymaan at-Taymee (d. 143H): If I was asked ‘Where is Allah?’ I Would Say Above The Heaven [Mukhtasar al-Uluww” of adh-Dhahabi, (p. 133)]

      Even al Qurtubi (a known ashari) even admits in his Tafsir of Surah al-A’raf: The early Salaf – may Allah be pleased with them – would not negate direction (jiha), nor would they utter such. Rather, they and the rest uttered in affirmation of that (i.e. direction) for Allah Ta’ala, None from the Salaf al-Salih denied that Allah Ta’ala Rose over His Throne in reality (haqiqatan)’.

      Again, Abdul Qadir Jilani (rh) mentions Jiha specifically for Allaah in Ghuniyaat-tut-taalibeen.

      The funny thing is, saffarini smacks it when he mentions in his sharh of his aqidah poem about the ones who says jiha necessitates jism;

      ‘Once you know this, then be certain, that many people think that the one who believes in a direction (jiha for Allah), or Rising (Istiwa), is from the Mujassima, for they think that this belief necessitates Tajsim.’ (1/198)

      And you call yourself a hanbali *rolls eyes*

      When Ibn Abbas was talking about Allaah above His Throne before he created anything, that anything is pertaining to the creation of the heavens and earth. That coincides with the hadeeth mentioned in Sahih Bukhari. It doesn’t mean the Throne was eternal (except to the ones Allaah has deprived of knowledge)

      Plus I don’t know why you’re asking me to look into Mukhtasar Minhaaj ul-Qaasideen. What you could possibly show me in that book that could show me the ‘error of my ways’?! You just randomly shouting out books to make it look as if you know anything?

      Additionally, can you give up your false pathetic claims on us ‘editing’ your posts, we did no such thing and it is a broken record now. You’re getting boring. However take note, any random post that you submit that has nothing to do with the article will not be shown. So your warning is there.

      • 7 Abu Muhammad Ibraheem al-Hanbali

        When I mentioned Minhaj ul-Qaasideen, it was for your own benefit, because quite frankly you need some humble pie. You need to research the merits and etiquettes to seeking knowledge, the praiseworthy and the blameworthy, because If you only reflected upon that chapter, this blog would not exist at all in this form. It is not about what you have said, but the way you have said it. Keep in mind that http://www.Asharis.com have also wrote an article in attempt to refute me, but they have not made it personal.

        As for the Aqeedah quotes, the challenge for you is to show me in Arabic with full references, not your short effort of google research. This does not suffice and I could easily reject the above evidences using the claim of mistranslation, misquotation etc. So solidify your position, if you can. A small challenge if you are truly sincere in your research, and while you are at it, do me a favour and provide the scan of the Aqeedah book where they say Mu’awiyyah is from the fire. Or did you simply take that from Allaahu Akbar . net?

        Giving full scans and correct evidences only increases your own credibility and you will only be doing yourself a favour.

      • 8 Abu Muhammad Ibraheem al-Hanbali

        only these quotes matter

        Even al Qurtubi (a known ashari) even admits in his Tafsir of Surah al-A’raf: The early Salaf – may Allah be pleased with them – would not negate direction (jiha), nor would they utter such. Rather, they and the rest uttered in affirmation of that (i.e. direction) for Allah Ta’ala, None from the Salaf al-Salih denied that Allah Ta’ala Rose over His Throne in reality (haqiqatan)’.

        Again, Abdul Qadir Jilani (rh) mentions Jiha specifically for Allaah in Ghuniyaat-tut-taalibeen.

        The funny thing is, saffarini smacks it when he mentions in his sharh of his aqidah poem about the ones who says jiha necessitates jism;

        ‘Once you know this, then be certain, that many people think that the one who believes in a direction (jiha for Allah), or Rising (Istiwa), is from the Mujassima, for they think that this belief necessitates Tajsim.’ (1/198)

        provide them in Arabic along with the Mu’awiyyah quote

      • First thing is first. You are the LAST person to lecture us about etiquettes. If you haven’t forgotten, the evil words you typed to us on this same blog is still here for you to see.

        I agree, there are some things we have said in the past that I wish we could have said in a better manner, however that doesn’t stop us showing the truth when there is a need to and that we should stop continuing to do so.

        Also my research about the ahbash has come from someone who I know personally who debated them. Shaykh Abdurrahman Dimashqia and he shown me the references that I was able to use to prove the allegations. I don’t know about Allaahu akbar.net and who is behind them, however I know Shaykh Dimashqia personally, as well as I know when he went to debate them in Lebanon and they brought guns to the debate and that the ahbash spread an evil rumour about him (which isn’t a surprise). Now of course, the books i quoted, i do not have them myself (and care not to have them) however the books DO exist and if one wants to check themselves it is not hard. Especially for ahbash as they keep these books in their libraries in honour of their cult leader’s legacy.

        Additionally, even if i were to have the books and scan them for you all to see, would you accept it? Asharis.com have scans from books printed in lebanon and egypt (non-saudi print) to prove that it is in yours and your ilks books, yet you STILL do not accept their stance! Are you upon their way now just because they have scans? The fact of the matter is, even if I had these scans you still wouldn’t accept it (just like you refuse to accept asharis.com) so your point is redundant.

        What is interesting is you have acknowledged on facebook that they speak ill of the companions (incl mu’aawiyah [ra]) and you are in disagreements with the ahbash yourself, yet your hatred for ‘wahhabies’ overrules what is right and what is wrong. May Allaah protect us from committing such injustice. Ameen

        Now in regards to the Qurtubi statement I quoted. The reason I quoted it in english is because logically i’m addressing in english speaking/reading audience. I can remember quoting the arabic to a habashi once and he got upset at me for not showing the english!

        Anyway the exact statement is discussed on asharis.com, so it saves me the trouble

        Here is link

        http://www.asharis.com/creed/articles/wmhvd-al-qurtubi-on-al-istiwaa-in-his-tafseer-the-salaf-affirmed-allaah-is-above-the-throne.cfm

      • 10 Abu Muhammad Ibraheem al-Hanbali

        I do not ask for your egotistic lecture, riddled with false accusations and strawman arguments, I simply asked for a few page scans, or even the downloadable pdf with the page numbers. It is that simple. Since it is that simple and always has been that simple, I do not need to make this discussion more complicated by replying to any of the gas from the last comment.

      • 11 Abu Muhammad Ibraheem al-Hanbali

        Plus the link here does not describe a jihat to Allah

        http://www.abovethethrone.com/arsh/articles/tgnnw-abdul-qaadir-al-jeelaanee-d-561h-from-the-views-of-the-jahmiyyah-is-that-allaah-is-not-above-the-throne.cfm

        It refutes the Jahmis who deny the throne. This is a problem because I affirm that Allah is ABOVE the throne, thereby too affirming the throne. However, the issue here is how we understand His transcendence.

        It is seeming to me that you guys do not like being questioned. Well that is a bit ironic since you both have publicly challenged me to a debate about the issue. Here I am asking for simple scans, evidences, asking you how do you come to such and such a conclusion. Hamza’s answers seem to be somewhat better and less egotistic this time round.

        I am not asking for a debate, I am not even claiming to refute you. I am looking at the way you understand things, your ability to research into these matters to even come to some of the conclusions you make. I cannot help it if you feel threatened by a few simple questions, a few simple requests.

      • To be honest with you Andrew, I do not care whether you think my posts are egotistical or not. I’m not and never have been composing articles to show to people I am worth something. My intention is to only clarify the truth. nothing less

        Asking for scans is fine, I have no problem in that. However what you are asking for, I was only mentioning them in a passing comment. I do not have the scans for the quotations i cited. It was something i read myself and came across in my studies in Aqeedah.

        However as I mentioned, Abdul qadir al jilani’s statement is in Ghuniyat-tut-taalibeen and Imam Saafrini’s statement is in Lawami’ al-Anwaar.

        If it is imperative that you need them and don’t have access to the books yourself, then I can get scans or the exact arabic text for you within the week Insha’Allaah.

        Now in regards to your issue, I have no idea what it is. Your position is not clear enough. It’s correct Jahm bin safwan denied the throne and the few that followed him (i.e. The Jahmiyyah). However the Mu’tazilah (another group the ahbash have taken their principles of creed from) do not deny the Throne, they deny Allaah being above it. I spoke to quite a few AICP members and they confirmed this is their belief also.

        Now if i’m correct, you say you differ with them on that. However on the other hand, you say that Allaah’s Uluww is only a transcendence that exalts his majesty and not of an actual direction of the essence (dhaat) of Allaah.

        If that is the case (and correct me if i’m wrong) then your belief (concerning that issue) is no different to the ahbash. However again, please correct me if I am wrong.

        Allaah knows best

      • 13 Abu Muhammad Ibraheem al-Hanbali

        the posts was not a reply to you, they were a reply to Faisal, but somehow this is no reply option after his postngs so I had to scroll up, and when I did the comments was not numbered in order. So this makes it look like I posted before Faisal

      • Yes, I assumed you were speaking to faisal as you mentioned my name as a 3rd party. I tried to edit your post so it would look like you were replying to faisal, however i couldn’t somehow.

    • 15 Abu Muhammad Ibraheem al-Hanbali

      I truly think that your last reply begs egotism, and I am not prepared to go down that road with you whatsoever.

      I do not support the Habashis, but I do not purposely hate them. I do not hate Ibraheem, but I hate their creed. I saw the Mu’awiyyah comment years back and have had trouble locating it since. It was not a matter of debating you but rather seeing if you can produce what is said. But can you. You cannot even do that. – How do you expect people to believe you?

      Again you have refused to supply scans, its your credibility at stake. Not mine.

      • 16 Abu Muhammad Ibraheem al-Hanbali

        Ok, you have gave me the quote from Qurtubi, I will read an study further into that. Just two more:

        1. Again, Abdul Qadir Jilani (rh) mentions Jiha specifically for Allaah in Ghuniyaat-tut-taalibeen.

        and

        2. ‘Once you know this, then be certain, that many people think that the one who believes in a direction (jiha for Allah), or Rising (Istiwa), is from the Mujassima, for they think that this belief necessitates Tajsim.’ (1/198)

      • 17 Faisal Ibn SaifAllaah Sheikh

        Assalaam Alaikum

        SubhanAllah. I don’t understand what your trying to gain.

        Heres a few points you really need to consider before posting again since your points lack substance.

        1, You made a comment towards Hamza in which you said he thinks he can refute everything. Not once has he or any of claimed we can refute everything but Alhamdulilaah we can easily refute those that have been refuted by the scholars already. These are the points that we have summarized regarding the Ahbaash and we have presented them to those who are interested in knowing more about this group. If you have any comments regarding the article itself and Ahbaash then feel free to comment.

        2, In Mukhtasar Minhaj al-Qasidin it states under the section of Knowledge it states that from Useless knowledge is argumentation for the sole purpose of boasting as it leads to pride and showing off. Please take note of the fact that we have not once come onto your ‘Wahhabi Threat’ blog to debate or argue as it is pointless and leads nowhere. Yet you are the one that is consitent in commenting on our blog and diverting away from the subjects at hand. If you have an issue then go and write it up and upload it on your blog. If we have any points to make we will do so via this blog (and InshaAllah soon on my personal Blog!!). Yet you are the one that is consistent in arguing for the sake of arguing. Humble Pie is something that we all need generally speaking. Yourself included.

        3, Please tell us which article in http://www.Asharis.com refers to you or is this just your claim to fame? Believe me akh, some of the students of knowledge and those who are involved in translating some of the works of the scholars regarding Aqidah, Manhaj and refutation of the Ashaa’irah have personally told us that they will not bother with refuting you because your “nothing to worry about” since your articles and “refutations” are only reiterated points in your own way. And Alhamdulilaah we agreed.

        4, You say that we need to show things in Arabic with full scans as if you are ready to accept the points if the scans were given. An example can be the scan of Abdal-Qaadir al-Jilaani from Asharis.com in which he mentions that from the views of the Jahmiyah is that they say Allaah is not above His ‘Arsh. See: http://www.abovethethrone.com/arsh/articles/tgnnw-abdul-qaadir-al-jeelaanee-d-561h-from-the-views-of-the-jahmiyyah-is-that-allaah-is-not-above-the-throne.cfm They have provided a scan and and reference just as YOU request. Will you read and accept that? I doubt it.

        5, Many people request us to show Isnaad of the Salafi Scholars and whether it connects to the Prophet Sallallaahu alaihi Wasallam. When we do show Isnaads of current day Salafi scholars that reach back not just to the Prophet Sallallaahu alaihi Wasallam himself but also to the likes of Imaam al-Suyuti, Imaam al-Qurtubi, Imaam al-Shawkani, Imaam Ibn Kathir, Imaam Ahmad, Imaam Maalik and others yet when these were given they were rejected on the basis that they “were still Salafi”. So why do people request things when they know they will not accept it. Just for argumentation if you ask me. Something Mukhtasar Minhaaj al-Qasidin warns against.

        6, When speaking regarding etiquettes then as Hamza mentioned you are the last person to speak to us about this since you have not been the best in speech over this blog and these posts are still here to see. And believe me we have no need or desire to forge your posts because Alhamdullilaah we know we have a Lord that is a witness over all things.

        7, You say you do not support the Habashis but you do not “Purposely Hate them”. Alhamdulilaah neither do we. We have an issue with the Fitnah they caused in Nottingham, the mass Takfir they have made on many Muslims of Nottingham, The blackmail email etc. You are not blind to this. You said you hate the Creed of the Ahbaash. If you do then what is your purpose of commenting on an article that is highlighting their errors? Also would you be kind enough to send us another comment for our own research which states what you “hate” about their Creed.

        8, You asked “how do you expect people to believe you”? Simple, We are speaking regarding a group that is well known in Nottingham. As for those that are upon al-Salafiyyah, they have no reason to not believe us. As for those that are neutral then Alhamdulilaah from them we have had support and acceptance of our points. As for the Asharis and Sufi then notice how we presented statements from the likes of Gibril F Haddad, Faraaz Rabbani and others regarding the Habashis, so why would they (the Sufis/Asharis) NOT believe us? Unless Gibril F Haddad was lying?

        9, As for this credibility that is “at Stake”. You don’t need to worry about our “credibility” since we see the benefits of our work and Alhamdulilaah we have. You need to worry about your own.

        10, As for your constant concern that we will not upload your posts. Let me make one thing clear: From this day forth if any comment is submitted in which we feel as nothing to do with the topic at hand then we will NOT be uploading them since they do nothing but steer away from the issue at hand. So stop acting like a kid who comes to the Masjid and causes Fitnah and causes division for no purpose and then when banned from the Masjid due to his causing problems in the Masjid, goes around complaining he got kicked out for no reason!!

        And Allaah knows best.

        Was-Salaam alaikum Warahmatullaah.

  3. Woa, you people actually go to the extent of discarding Hafidh Ibn Hajar, and Al-Juwayni (a top teacher of Al-Ghazaliyy – I don’t even want to think what you say about Al-Ghazaliyy, as he was very adept in debating and rational dialect, and, of course, the Islamic Sciences).

    All you can do is quote misconstrued sayings of the Salaf, like for example, that so-called saying of Abdullah Ibn Abbas.

    I look forward to what you will respond to what Brother Abu Muhammad Al-Hanbali has said.

    Allah knows best.

    • Woa, you people actually go to the extent of discarding Hafidh Ibn Hajar, and Al-Juwayni (a top teacher of Al-Ghazaliyy – I don’t even want to think what you say about Al-Ghazaliyy, as he was very adept in debating and rational dialect, and, of course, the Islamic Sciences).

      Discard Ibn Hajar and Juwayni? Firstly neither Ibn Hajar or Juwayni are an authority in Aqeedah, and you have the nerve to talk about ‘discarding’ when you ignore statements from Ibn Abbas! What next? Are you gonna tell me ‘Al-radd alal Zanaadiqah wal Jahmiyyah’ from Imam Ahmad isn’t authentic as well?!

      What about Khalq Af’aalul-‘Ibaad of Imaam al-Bukhari? Your posts are getting more pathetic as they come.

  4. 20 Abu Muhammad Ibraheem al-Hanbali

    I have looked up the quote in Lawaam’u al-Anwaar, and have spotted something very very important, something that you have missed.

    http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?bk_no=107&ID=105&idfrom=104&idto=125&bookid=107&startno=1

    hint, check the page before, who is he quoting?

    This is a whole chapter on the Istiwaa, and to do full justice to the subject I am going to have to translate the whole chapter.

    As for al-Ghunyah, jihat was only mentioned for the seeing of Allah on yawm ul-Qiyaamah, that is another issue unrelated, but if you are refering to the statement of the Dhaat over the Throne, then I want you to consider this:

    “And it is not upon the meaning of al-Uluw as the Ash’ariyyah suggest”

    Can this be correct? Or does it seem flawed. Besides, this edition of Ghunyah is not the one the Imaam adh-Dhahabi transmitted. The one that Imaam Dhahabi transmitted contains the hands under the navel when praying, 20 ra’ka’ah in Ramadaan, does not mention the dhaat nor does it contain other questionable matters.

    The quote from Qurtubi by the Salafitalk team was a little disturbing given the fact they purposely omitted facts that was not in their favour from the translation. I had to re translate the whole paragraph:

    “This is regarding the issue of the istiwaa and the speech and action of the scholars. Indeed we have expounded from the many statements of the scholars [regarding this issue] in the book al-Kitaab ul-Ansaa fi Sharh Asmaa Allah ul-husnaa wa Sifaatihi al-Ulaa . And we mentioned in that book fourteen sayings from the majority from the Muataqadimeen [i.e. the Salaf] and the Muta’akkhireen [i.e. the Khalaf] that it is waajib to free and purify [do tanzeeh and subhaan] al-Baari [i.e. Allah the Creator] from having direction [al-Jihat] and occupying a space [tahayyuz – derived from the root hawz, see p. 213 Hans Wehr Dictionary] and it is nessacary to do
    so. This demonstrates the need that was upon the generaltiy of the early scholars [i.e. the Salaf] and those who came after them to free Allah the Most High from having directions. They did NOT attribute the direction of phsical aboveness, because this would imply that He moves and exists in a place [makaan] and spacial measurement [hayyaz] and it is nesscary to declare Him above being attributed with place, spacial measurment, movement [harakaat], being motionless by occupying a space [as-Sukun lil-Mutahayyiz], changing states [taghayyur wal-huduth]. This is the statement of the theologians. The first generations – Allah be well pleased
    with them – would not speak by negation of direction nor would they talk about that [i.e. Allah having a direction]. However, all of them spoke with affirmation according to what was spoken in His book [i.e. the Qur’an] and the narrations from His Messengers. Nobody from amongst the reighteous Salaf ever denied that the Istiwaa above His Throne is a reality, and the Thone was given special relevance, because it reperesents the paramount Highest point of His creation, only the modality of the Istiwaa is unknown, and indeed its reality is unknown. Imaam Maalik – Allah’s Mercy be upon him – said: “The lignuistic definition of Istiwaa is known, meaning: according to the launguage, Yet it’s reality [when this the word is applied to Allah] remains unknown, and to ask about this is bid’ah. Likewise, the wife of the Holy Prophet, Umm Salamah said: This affair should be one of sufficency, and whomsoever wishes to study this position futher should refer to the books of the scholars. [Tafseer al-Qurtubi, Surah al-A’raaf, ayah 54]

    • 21 Abu Muhammad Ibraheem al-Hanbali

      and this is without argument, without debate. I am trying to have adab and I am still learning from mistakes, I ask you to do the same, as this matter is not one of personal vandetta. So no more mud fights please.

      • I’m glad Andrew that we can come to a civilised discussion. I too, prefer not to have a ‘debate’ and even if we decide to disagree then we can do so in a respectful manner Insha’Allaah.

        I read the link you posted and to be honest, i found nothing wrong with it. I actually read it a few times to see whether I missed anything in that article, but it just affirms what I mentioned in regards to Imam Saffrini and Abdul Qadir al Jilani. It is explicit in there that Abdul Qadir al Jilani mentions jiha for Allaah

        Now in regards to Abdul Qadir al Jilani, i tried to do some research in regards to another version you was talking about, however unfortunately time doesn’t permit me to do so in an in-depth manner at the moment due to my workload.

        However even al kawthari (not someone i refer btw – however has produce many of abdul qadir jilani’s works and is a reference to asharis) mentioned in his book ‘Al Raf wa at meel’ about the reliability of Ghunya. Actually he did a whole chapter of ghunya in the same book i mentioned from pages 374-388.

        However that link you provided showed another thing interesting,

        وقيل للإمام عبد الله بن المبارك : كيف نعرف ربنا ؟ قال : بأنه فوق السماء السابعة على العرش بائن من خلقه . على أن نفس الإمام أبي الحسن الأشعري في كتابه ( الإبانة ) قال : إن الله مستو على عرشه كما قال الرحمن على العرش استوى ، وقال : ( إليه يصعد الكلم الطيب ) ، وقال : ( لعلي أطلع إلى إله موسى وإني لأظنه من الكاذبين ) كذب موسى في قوله إن الله فوق السماوات . وقال : ( أأمنتم من في السماء أن يخسف بكم الأرض ) فالسماوات فوقها العرش فلما كان العرش فوق السماوات ، وكان كل ما علا فهو سماء قال ( ( أأمنتم من في السماء ) وإنما أراد العرش الذي هو أعلى السماوات .

        قال : ورأينا المسلمين جميعا يرفعون أيديهم إذا دعوا إلى نحو السماء لأن الله مستو على العرش الذي فوق السماوات ، فلولا أن الله على العرش لم يرفعوا أيديهم نحو العرش .

        That pretty much says it all really.

  5. 23 Mohamed

    I knew a man, a teacher of knowledge, who travelled to Mecca to perform al Hajj. He rode in a taxi and while travelling, the subject of Islam came up. This Shaykh found out that the driver of the taxi believed that Allah lives inside of al ka^bah and that’s why the Muslims face towards al ka^bah when praying. At the same time the driver called himself a Muslim. After the shaykh taught the driver the correct creed (that Allah is not contained within a place and that He is not physically above, below, to the left, to the right, infront or behind anything), the driver took his shahadah and returned to al Islam, alHamdulillah.

    The difference between the belief of this taxi driver, and the belief of the wahhabiyys/anthropomorphists is minimal. The taxi driver believed that Allah has a size, with a length, width and depth and that He is smaller than al ka^bah. The wahhabiyys, by saying that Allah is physically located above al ^arsh (some say sitting upon it), would mean that either Allah is larger than al ^arsh, smaller than it, or equal in size to it (and there is no fourth option). All of these claims are blasphemy and contrary to the belief of the Muslims. Allah is not an object, He does not have a shape or a size or limits or boundaries. This is the belief of the Muslims from Sayyiduna Adam to Sayyiduna MuHammad.

    • Thank you Mohamed, for your post. However to be frank, that was one of the most ridiculous posts I have seen from your cult. Thank you for making your cult look more ridiculous than The Fakehead Report could ever have done!

      Have a ponder about this, if you will. Did you know a baby baboon innately knows how to crawl & climb from one branch to another without being taught by its parents? (This is true, you can check it up). Why do yo think this is? Also why do you think a baby human knows how to suckle (i.e. uses it’s mouth to draw milk) from it’s mother straight away after birth despite not being taught and using an umbilical cord throughout the 9 months it was in its mothers womb? Why do you think this is?

      It is due to Allaah instilling something inside his creatures known as the ‘Fitrah’.

      The reason we bow down to Allaah facing the ka’bah is because we have been commanded to do so by Allaah (swt) and His prophet (saw). HOWEVER what is the reason we raise our hands to the sky pleading to Allaah whilst we make du’a, even though there is no command to do so? It is due to the very same reason why the baby baboon innately knows how to climb and the baby human knows how to suckle. Due to the fitrah. Something which you and your cult are an enemy of.

      As for Ahlus sunnah, we embrace it and have no problem practising Islam accordingly with it as Islam is the natural deen for mankind. I suggest you do the same.

      • 25 Umm Foulaan

        I was a member of this cult for several years, their followers are severely brainwashed and cannot reason with evidences other than those which they have been taught parrot fashion (often incorrectly taught). Also the cult is teaching that Abdullah Al-Harari is still alive so if you were wondering why they speak of him in the present tense this is why. They are a very scary group and InshaAllaah I do hope they are not still causing problems in your community. In the community I lived in where I ‘learned’ from this cult Alhamdulillaah their influence has severely waned, with the majority of their followers either leaving the sect or leaving the area. In the community I live in now they tried to set up classes but there was no interest and so they just disappeared after a while. Most of their beliefs and behaviour is frankly petty and even laughable but it’s things they do such as reporting innocent Muslims to the police for ‘terrorism’ just because they have the correct aqeedah and refute this sect-these are worrying developments.


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